State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.

[luke213]

I think it's a bit of a mix, chicken and egg problem to a certain degree. But I disagree on the point of not getting guys back to the forum, or rather maybe forums aren't the answer and something else is. However my overall point is purely Facebook I don't think is the solution, it might be part of the solution. But it lacks too many features to run MIA effectively and create a good user experience as well as archiving that information going ahead.

The way I see it Facebook is in a position that they are the largest and most used social network, but they are also in a bind, they need to change their platform at this point to allow those functions for communities like MIA to exist there. If they don't then something will surpass them. Think MySpace vs. Facebook. At this point that could be forums as strange as that seems, but it would require some serious changes on the forum software side of things, as well as working within the understanding that most guys are visiting MIA(facebook or here) on a mobile device. So those functions need to lower that barrier to entry to make it easier for guys to use the software. On the facebook side there isn't a dang thing we can do, it's their house we're just taking up space in it. Functions/features we're stuck with what they offer and there isn't anything we can do about it. That's part of the problem as I see it, but here we can make changes and try and make the platform work better for the users which I think would be an improvement over the way things are running now.

The problem with that approach is time, I've got very little time, and this isn't a small project. I've got a couple things I should be able to do in my timeline planned to try and make the forums work better for guys and make things easier and I think that's a step in the right direction.

As far as games and organization there, I'm very limited and I don't try to plan or do much there purely because I'm not local or in a position to really help or change things there. On a good year I might be able to get to a game downstate, but not this year. I'll run and organize up here of course but that doesn't help necessarily with the whole of the issues down in your neck of the woods. We're in a different position up here because it's smaller and more regional without allot of the community issues that are occurring downstate.

I'm very open to suggestions and ideas for the path forward on getting the playerbase to larger games and organizing them, but I don't feel right spearheading it. I'll give input etc, happy to do it.

And just looping back around the information currently on the old MIA is archived, the information here is archived, but everything on Facebook isn't. In the sense that if anything changes on that platform everything is gone. Whether that be Facebook decides that airsoft is too much like guns and shuts it down, or whatever happens. So I'd rather see that discussion occur somewhere it can be searched by people even outside of Michigan, as well as stored long term for guys going forward.

And I think as a whole this thread is going to put all the info out there of what guys think the path forward is, then we can come up with a plan. But since the forums are pretty slow compared to what they used to be I don't think we need to jump to action either. Looking it over and figuring out ideas I think will give us a good way to go forward but I want to make sure the guys interested in having an opinion have a good chance to air it publicly before plans are made etc.

Luke

[Canto]

The "us versus them" mentality is part of the issue. In terms of community-player-host relationships, there is no "us" or "them". All of us are here on an airsoft forum/facebook group. I would bet money on the fact that the the hosts, moderators, and admins are still players and still part of the community. I would equally bet on the fact that they also own an airsoft replica, camouflage, some sort of gear, and eye protection as well... I have never understood this part of the debate, and this is an old, old arguement; going back to the proboards forum.

As was said above, Michigan Airsoft (MiA) is not a team, hosting organization, or a field. We are an non-profit, loose organization, made up of airsoft players, event hosts, fields, retailers, and teams. Granted, Michigan Airsoft has been viewed as "elitest" in the past. I'm not sure why either. There is a non-centralized leadership structure for the organization, but again it's not centralized. There is no one single entity in charge and that is going back to the old proboard days.

Old Michigan Airsoft Proboards Forum: http://miairsoft.proboards.com/

Since the old proboards forum won't load for me, off the top of my head the old moderators/admins were: Myself, Mosin, Mirage, Gimpalong, Bigmack, Hadoken, Big Texas, GlassArchitect, Knief, Timm, and I apologize to anyone I forgot, I know there were more. Only five people (2 per group and then one) were part of the same team. Myself (FLAK) and GlassArchitect (FLAK) and Mirage (RAGE) and Mosin (RAGE). Timm is a dual enrolled member of FLAK and the Bastards I believe. Big Texas used to play with the RAGE guys, but didn't towards the end. I havn't seen Mirage or GlassArchitect on the field in a long time either. Big Texas has lived in Illinois for a while now as well.

In my opinion; the "elitest" outlook may simply come from the fact that people don't like being told what to do nor obeying the rules/regulations of others that they do not agree with. For right or wrong.

I've heard this before as an event host and a moderator; "Oh this is shitty", "I don't like you or your field", "I don't like your team", etc, etc, etc. If you a part of an organization, at a game, part of a team; play by the rules whether you like them or not. If you are not in a leadership position, you are more than welcome to propose a change but blatent shitposting/flaming/etc isn't the way to do it. It will probably prompt a negative reaction from the party that is in a position of authority as well.

Again, there is no "us" or "them". If you want to prompt change in regards to something, make a good impression and go from there, play by the rules, and don't be an ass. That's what I've always gone by...

Back to the "lack" of large scale, organized events in the state; event hosts need the players as much as the players need the event hosts. It's a two-way street for all parties involved, no matter how you feel. Because you cannot run a large scale game with the seven people that show up, unannounced, without a pre-decided uniforms/factions... What's left is an open play style, recreational game and that's what it's become for the most part in the state on the events front. 

There are still some large scale event hosts left in Michigan. But hosts need the help of the players that want a place to play. Or else the players themselves need to step up to the plate and give it a shot. On either hand it comes back to someone with ties to a location or making a proposal to a field and taking the reigns.

No matter what; being a welcoming, open, and accepting community both on the internet, on the field, and with field owners/hosts will keep us together as an organization and network of players.

I also like your idea of a rotating event series in 2018 Gimpalong. I'll toss my field's name in the ring for a potential location.

[nfischer83]

Although I'm newer to the community and haven't lived through some of the growing pains, I've been following along with the discussion and would like to offer up some ideas for an action plan stemming from the conversation.

1) Someone should lead the charge in making the miairsoft.org the number 1 spot for Michigan based airsoft information.

This includes a lot of ongoing task trying to herd the community here, but I think the biggest one is connecting with all the common event hosts and get buy in from them to use the forums as their number 1 spot for events. Of course use the other channels for advertising methods to further the reach, but the forums should be the go to spot for the full details of the event, signup information, etc. If all of the events are being concatenated into one location, it forces the airsoft players to use the forums as a way to get the information about the events, sign up, and participate in the sport.

Players are only going to follow the lead of the event hosts. As a player myself, I'm joining all the Facebook groups and forums that I can find to prevent missing out on opportunities because there isn't a consensus on where this information should be. But if all the hosts are agreeing to unify the community in a central location, everyone benefits: The hosts get their events in front of the entire community instead of just the people that like them on Facebook, and the players have a central repository to go find events to participate in. It streamlines everything.

To get buy-in from the hosts, there needs to be a champion who is going to lead the way in connecting with the host and organizing conversations to push them in that direction. Once the major event hosts start doing this regularly, the rest of the hosts will follow and it will become the standard. Then, players don't have a choice and the forum grows.

2) Event hosts need to work together and coordinate with each other.

There should really be some type of open communication chat that is constantly going on between the event host. I'm not sure if that is a FB messenger group, a text message group, an email chain, or whatever. The point is that all the host should be working together on a few different levels:
- They should work together to not schedule their events on the same weekend. Has anyone got a full tally on the events happening on October 21? I've counted like 4 in Michigan and that doesn't even include Milsim West. Of course the community is divided because players are split all across these events. Why isn't 1 or 2 of these events on October 14 or even October 28? Cause I haven't found anything for those dates. This allows players to attend more events and allow host to have more participation at each event.
- Hosts should plan events together, co-brand them / co-sponor them, or whatever, to help unite the community. Yes event host compete on some levels, but why not work together to benefit everyone? How about a host on the east side partners with a host on the west side and holds a big co-sponsored game a location in the middle? I would say that most players agree that more players with larger playing fields and more organization is more enjoyable experience than smaller games. (I'm speaking more towards the scenario / milsim events rather than weekly rec games)

3) We all need to find ways to support opening of new fields / locations to play the game.

So far, I haven't been able to participate in any event that is less than 2 hours away. I don't mind the drive, but I'm sure there are many players that aren't able to make that type of trip every couple weeks or so. This lowers overall participation of the sport. We needs some entrepreneurs and leaders to step up and work together to get some more playing fields throughout the state. Of course, this is much easier said than done. There is a lot that goes into this. But my point is that if the community wants to thrive, we need places to play the game. Players are the ones that drive this.

We as players need to support our community members that are trying to open new locations. Help with labor, materials, and most importantly, help get players to their fields to play the game. We need to be the advocates and push our community to grow. Individual host can't do it alone.

All of this is easier said than done, but it starts with some champions leading the charge and setting up the organization and communication efforts to make it a reality. This thread is a start, but it's only the beginning.

[luke213]

I will say on the communication front that is something we do in the UP as a whole. I'm in communication with the other guys hosting and planning, that's actually why we had an event last weekend, we've got one this weekend at another host, then one on the 21st here, and one on the 28th at another host. But sometimes we also end up doing Saturday/Sunday at different locations as well. But typically with our small community that does still draw players away from one to the other.

I'm not sure with the size of the player base in lower Michigan and the distance to events if having say an event on the east side, and one on the west on the same day would actually have much effect. I guess that's up to you guys and how far you typically are willing to travel and from the host perspective how far are guys traveling to get to your games.

But I do think that's a good idea, I'd happily put up a new section on the forums for hosts to communicate, or you of course could do it in a group chat on facebook or where ever makes sense. But I think that's a good idea.

Also that kind of connects with the calendar function I installed here since that was the goal there, was to allow guys to look at a calendar of events and locations to be able to not only plan their games but also see when others were playing. And players then could get a good idea what was happening when.

Luke

[Gimpalong]

2) Event hosts need to work together and coordinate with each other.

There should really be some type of open communication chat that is constantly going on between the event host. I'm not sure if that is a FB messenger group, a text message group, an email chain, or whatever. The point is that all the host should be working together on a few different levels:
- They should work together to not schedule their events on the same weekend. Has anyone got a full tally on the events happening on October 21? I've counted like 4 in Michigan and that doesn't even include Milsim West. Of course the community is divided because players are split all across these events. Why isn't 1 or 2 of these events on October 14 or even October 28? Cause I haven't found anything for those dates. This allows players to attend more events and allow host to have more participation at each event.
- Hosts should plan events together, co-brand them / co-sponor them, or whatever, to help unite the community. Yes event host compete on some levels, but why not work together to benefit everyone? How about a host on the east side partners with a host on the west side and holds a big co-sponsored game a location in the middle? I would say that most players agree that more players with larger playing fields and more organization is more enjoyable experience than smaller games. (I'm speaking more towards the scenario / milsim events rather than weekly rec games)

There is a sort of gentleman's agreement on this where the various event hosts have agreed not to host on top of one another. That generally has held true only for "big" events. So if there's rec play scheduled at Bangor on the west side and rec play at No Limits on the east side, those events might be scheduled at the same time because they're not really drawing the same crowd. Guys who are going out to rec play probably aren't going to drive across the state to play when a rec event is scheduled close to them. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but generally that logic has seemed to hold true.

[Canto]

I think October 21st of this year was a coincidence for all hosts involved, myself included. Most event hosts don't nessicarily coordinate for event dates, but I'm positive knowing all parties involved that no one was out to get the other. Between all parties involved, that hasn't happened before and I doubt it's happened this time.

I've hosted an autumn scenario event with Hole in the Wall Paintball since 2006 (Operation: Flash Fire/Operation: Firestorm) on whatever weekend is closest to the middle of the month. So, that's what I went off of.

As Gimpalong said, it's more of a "gentlemans agreement" between hosts. I have yet to see hosts "go after each other" with event posting and event scheduling.

[firemandave]

I'm entirely new to the MiA forums, but I've been a member of the FB group for a while. I wanted to put my $0.02 into this topic, my buddy Ken and I have had long discussions about improving airsoft here.

The biggest thing I see being an issue is education. I play almost exclusively at MCA indoors for a multitude of reasons, not least of all I have bad knees and outdoor fields kill me. This is not intended as a shot at the guys at MCA, I think they're great, but because of the relatively large influx of renters and first timers, they don't really have time to explain a lot. They go over the rules for the field and get people out playing because let's face it, we don't pay to listen to explanations, we pay to play.

This is where the veterans can come in; we can explain the why of the rules and help teach the new kids how to play effectively. We can lead by example, by playing within the rules expected and keeping our tempers in check when we get bonus-balled. Instead of berating a new player for using bad tactics, we can teach them. We all love this sport, or we wouldn't be playing. We should be doing everything we can to instill that love into new players, or we'll all eventually be a bunch of old bastards in wheelchairs wheezing "call your hits!" at each other.

I try (and fail) to live up to those standards. I've lost my temper with people arguing and I shouldn't. I've ignored people trying to talk to me about their achievements on their first time out playing. I need to get better about that, and a lot of other players do too. If we want this sport to survive, we need to get rid of the salt and police each other on it.

Respect, at the end of the day, is what is needed. Just because I play a tactical game doesn't mean I need to talk crap about speedsofters and vice versa. The veterans of the sport need to, again, lead by example here. If we treat new players with respect, they'll see that and (hopefully) start emulating it. We need to take new players under our wings and teach them how to play. We need to gently correct players when they step outside the rules, and if that fails, we go to the ref instead of starting arguments.

We also need to make sure that our friendly jibes at each other over guns or gear are recognized as just that. I've had new players come to me concerned because people who have played together for a long time are sniping at each other verbally. What we say to each other is heard by other players and we need to be aware of that.

Another issue I've seen with the new kids is the fear of getting hit. Again, we can lead by example there. Grab a new kid and take them along with you and show them it's not a big deal. Get them playing, so they want to keep playing. We need to do better. If we do better, the game gets better.

While the field owners have skin in this game, ultimately it is up to us. We patronize fields that play by the rules and do things that make us want to play there. Fields that don't ultimately lose business. We are the driving force for airsoft in Michigan, for better or worse. It's on us as players to keep the community welcoming and eliminate the toxic attitudes that have started to invade the game. It's a huge responsibility, not only to the game but to each other. We need to keep each other in check, as well as keeping ourselves. Without players, there's no game.

[Canto]

Paul Alan Buffington - Does this prove the moderators/admins here are the same as facebook?

[Naboo]

After reading through this thread and closely monitoring what has transpired through MIA for the past several years, I wanted to provide input:

I used to help run the Jackal events and am a former member of the OCAA. For those that remember (such as Gimp), even then I can recollect issues with how the community felt, specifically in regards to being "clique-ish" or "divided." Was this true? To an extent, yes - because many of the smaller, non-MIA oriented communities detested the rules and standards put forth. I am noticing, however, the general attitude these smaller communities pursued then has extended into what a majority of players who do not wish to unify think now; they are not seeing the bigger picture on behalf of our community as a whole. And that's okay. Should they? Probably, but this will take time, and a lot of mentoring/teaching of the old community unto the new with respect to how events were handled, player etiquette, general attitude towards games/the excitement of playing, etc.

It's okay if they do not feel the need to unify under one commonality, as one collective (a la MIA), which is unfortunate for us, where the old framework of the community (as Canto said) fell through after proboards was archived. This surely damaged the foundation built up by the past mods/admins, and for the current ones. As many others have identified, the influx of activity these days is through Facebook, albeit through several groups. This is why I say it's okay to not unify: It's okay for different groups to possess different schools of thought regarding how the game should be played, or to stick to one specific area. There is a lot of nuance to be identified based on this, however a lot of it was outlined in previous posts and I feel it detracts from my point: We need to not only teach new(er) players more about the sport, but we also need to ask ourselves: How can we approach this?

Unfortunately I find it to be an extremely complicated issue, despite airsoft as a sport being rather specific, aside from the different forms of play. As established already, people play for different reasons; they want multi-day operations, they only want to play for an afternoon, they rarely get time to play, etc. This is fine, of course - variety is the spice of life, and it certainly allows the sport, especially in our state, to have more players.

I do not think we should look into how we can unify the community, but rather improving the attitude of players. I took a two-year hiatus until last winter, and based on the dozen times I have played this year, I agree the general mindset of players has changed. The playerbase seems less friendly, less willing to learn. Which is why I suggest we play and lead by example.

Not only should those of us responding identify issues at hand (we already have), we should actively discourage the same issues we're experiencing. At games, we should be friendly and outgoing to newer players. We should help them, talk to them, befriend them, do things to pique their interest and ultimately encourage them to continue playing. We should lead by example to impart a lasting impression on them. After all, our first memories in a sport (especially airsoft) mold who we become as a player. If we can positively impact/help as many newer players as possible and perhaps educate them as soon as possible, our quality should improve. At MCA, for example, when I play with my teammate(s), we are very friendly and helpful to newer players. In fact, I remember a teammate and I defusing a heated player last winter. This is the kind of behavior we should strive to achieve; to be level-headed, calm, and willing to teach/learn. I feel this to be the first major step towards growth.

[Troutzor]

I think a lot of good points have been made so far.

A couple of things come to mind:

a) Making MIA the central resource for all things Michigan Airsoft.

Content is king. I think we have already made some moves in the right direction here. If we can drum up interest and conversation the forums will heal themselves. To be honest, even the Facebook page has gotten stale lately. I find myself wandering over to the page multiple times a day looking for interesting content, just to find nothing. I've always been more of a follower than a leader in that regard, I'm happy to give advice, answer questions, discuss opinions, etc. I think I'll be trying to generate more discussion threads here, and participate in active ones.

b) Statewide events

I love the idea of quarterly events around the state.  How about "MIA Field Days", bring them back! Perhaps organizing a community swap meet or product show. There was mention of something earlier this year, but I never heard anything come of it. 

c) Engaging new players, leading by example, expanding the community

Absolutely! The best thing you can do is to be friendly, get the kid in the hoodie and paintball mask to follow you into the bushes, or help clear a room. Talk about gear, share your experience. A lot of us already do this, as was said "Lead by example" don't judge.

Also, you'd be surprised by the people around you that might be interested in the hobby. I've recruited a coworker and his son, and two different coworker's husbands into airsoft.  Hell, we're practically building an office league over here. What's crazy, is these guys are all over 40, go figure.

So yeah, be an AMBASSADOR to airsoft and MIA.

d) What is the end goal of this conversation?

I think everyone is going to find something different here, to some a research resource, to others a way to interact with people across the state, still others might find a team or guys they want to play with and get to know in person on the field. To Gimpalong's point,

Is this conversation about getting people back to the forums and participating in the knowledge base?
Is this conversation about increasing the number of a "big game"/scenario/milsim events?
Is this conversation about addressing the fragmentation of the community and figuring out a way to bring people together?
Is this conversation about trying to foster a tighter, less antagonistic community?

I believe it to be all of the above.

Okay---so the last part...

As was said above, Michigan Airsoft (MiA) is not a team, hosting organization, or a field. We are an non-profit, loose organization, made up of airsoft players, event hosts, fields, retailers, and teams. Granted, Michigan Airsoft has been viewed as "elitest" in the past. I'm not sure why either. There is a non-centralized leadership structure for the organization, but again it's not centralized. There is no one single entity in charge and that is going back to the old proboard days.

Let me preface this: The following is an insane thought, I know the implications are far reaching, and incredibly complicated and I may get grilled for saying any of this, but here goes--

d) MIA isn't a team, an authority or sanctioning body.

Should it be? Or has the opportunity passed us up at this point? I'm sure this discussion was had years ago. It has so much potential to be a sticky subject.  I'm sure many cringe at the idea of trying to form an organized NPO. If MIA had that level of organization, what could it do to affect positive change in the community?

If you look at it like companies look at things like ISO and similar regulatory bodies. It has potential to standardize, organize, sanction, sponsor, and certify. MIA would become a huge part of the community in a ton of new ways, strengthen Airsoft as an industry in State of Michigan (heck as scary as it is, it could go as far as lobbying in the State legislature, imagine things like tax breaks to small businesses, grants or loans for startups, even allocation of public lands for public fields...)

MIA would have to partner with shops, fields, teams--everyone, and those would become a part of MIA in a new way. In the same way things like ISO are like that, you join it, you comply, you become a partner, it becomes you, you become it.

Okay---you may need to go an wash after reading that dirty mess of an idea.

Sorry.

[Canto]

are far reaching, and incredibly complicated and I may get grilled for saying any of this, but here goes--

d) MIA isn't a team, an authority or sanctioning body.

Should it be? Or has the opportunity passed us up at this point? I'm sure this discussion was had years ago. It has so much potential to be a sticky subject.  I'm sure many cringe at the idea of trying to form an organized NPO. If MIA had that level of organization, what could it do to affect positive change in the community?

If you look at it like companies look at things like ISO and similar regulatory bodies. It has potential to standardize, organize, sanction, sponsor, and certify. MIA would become a huge part of the community in a ton of new ways, strengthen Airsoft as an industry in State of Michigan (heck as scary as it is, it could go as far as lobbying in the State legislature, imagine things like tax breaks to small businesses, grants or loans for startups, even allocation of public lands for public fields...)

MIA would have to partner with shops, fields, teams--everyone, and those would become a part of MIA in a new way. In the same way things like ISO are like that, you join it, you comply, you become a partner, it becomes you, you become it.

Okay---you may need to go an wash after reading that dirty mess of an idea.

Sorry.

There is no one central person, business, team, or field in charge though, it's a loose collective of people in a social network that choose to associate. There are people here from all walks of life and levels of involvement. There is no business license, no tax id, because it's not needed. This is a club, nothing more. Clubs are allowed to set their own rules according to what they see fit.

Zero of the current admins here or on facebook are on the same team that are active anymore. Not a single active one.

Safety standards are more or less the only "regulatory" factor. Even then that can be argued for the sake of common sense and general well-being.