State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.

[luke213]

So guys there was an ongoing discussion on the Facebook group surrounding ways to improve MIA. Unfortunately it was brought to light because of a particularly irritating example of poor airsoft behavior at a recent event. I'll quote my post there to explain some of my feelings.

So I'm going to throw out my 2 cents, most of you don't know me or well. Some of you do and even a few may remember me from way back in the early days on MIA. Some of you first got to meet me face to face last year when I was downstate since I'm in the UP I'm always a bit off the normal, though in the past as Mike mentioned young and disposable income I fairly often jumped in my car drove 500 miles and played the weekend games, then drove home to work. I played with Hado and the guys from ACO and allot of those old timers that are even more old timers than those of us now considered the old timers;)

What I personally see different or the largest difference, is that Facebook as a whole is casual communication. Most of the traffic has moved here from the forums, it started before the transition to the new site though. The site didn't help in the sense that it was different, but the reason was because we couldn't sell guns anymore on proboards and we didn't own the history of MIA all the posts etc. It's stuck on proboards. As it stands the community owns the content on MIA, it could easily be moved to a different platform or host without much issues which we could never do back in the day. But guys started going to facebook when you could sell guns here, which dropped MIA's numbers allot, as it tapered off, we made the move, then facebook banned gun sales, and some traffic came back.

None the less the casual nature and lack of formatting and archival of information I see as the biggest issue. On the forums you can see to a degree what someone contributed based on their post count, their rank and how long they have been a member. There isn't anything like that here to take it's place. Also older information is still available and able to be easily searched and found. Which cuts down on the constant repeat posts(it still occurs but less).

I'm also not saying facebook is bad, it isn't, but I think it's a big part of the problem with MIA as a community. It's driving a casual conversation about airsoft which isn't bad, but when the habbits from facebook end up at events it really shouldn't be a surprise. MIA in the past because of the platform and rules tended to shake those people out. Was it perfect? No not even close, there was drama and BS etc. But the mods/admins did their best to keep it going forward in the right direction. The same thing occurs here but because of the platform it's a hell of allot harder to track users and admin this. Just a minor example warning levels. Here it's a ban or nothing, no tracking etc. On the forum you can put notes on a person, so the other mods know the history and if they have been a repeat problem ban them the next time they do something purely stupid.

It's not a perfect solution, but I do feel the forums give the community more structure and continuity as well as control over the quality of the users/players than we'll ever see on facebook.

As far as the types of games, we've got 2,000 players on here even if a quarter were active then we could have full rosters at any type of event the hosts would like to host across lower Michigan every single weekend. But we've gotta get the new players involved in the community, and make it accessible but also a serious enough environment that they will take it serious. And no I don't mean serious in a bad way, but take safety seriously and respect other players etc. Maybe I'm just old, but that's the only real way I see the community going forward long term, I could certainly be wrong but it's also the reason I spearheaded getting the new forum setup, adding up everyone's old post counts etc and moving them and generally spending the time and money getting it all setup and running. I'd like to see the community thrive, and ideally at some point I'd like to be able to attend some of the larger games like I used to downstate again. Though my life will have to be a bit less busy before that is an option anytime soon.

Either way my 2 cents, short version use the forum, it doesn't take that many guys to drive the traffic and information back that direction. If you feel that's the problem then you can do something about it just simply by posting there and replying to questions etc.

For those that suggested moving the discussion here, let's do it. On top of that if it's news to you reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion as well on what we can do as a community to make it stronger and better as a whole.

Luke

EDIT: Note I'm a very small part of the overall conversation on facebook, so please don't think I'm trying to "control" it by any means. I just wanted to quote my own post there, so that guys have an idea of some of the things being discussed, and get their own ideas out there.

Also the broad strokes are the community as a whole is more fragmented and poor behavior and organization is causing some issues within the community. My theory as mentioned above is that forums are a better organization system for many reasons for our type of community. Also Facebook while it does some things very well, I think is contributing to the current issues. Myself I see facebook a bit more like a "chat" than a forum replacement, but I think everyone is open to suggestions here for ways to move forward and help the community.

[darcness]

Absolutely excellent idea to bring this here Luke.  I was actually going to do the same thing myself. 

I definitely think we need to re-invigorate the forum and try to get more traffic over here.  When I checked on the forum for the first time I was kind of shocked to see the lack of activity, especially remembering how active the old MIA forum was.  As we all know, it wasn't perfect, but at least we kept it going with daily content.  I feel that if enough of us make a commitment to be active on the forum, the rest will follow.  When you come to a forum and see it so dead, you're not going to waste your time registering, let alone trying to be an active contributor. 

On top of getting the forum going I think we need to commit to being active in the community.  That means helping out at fields, attending events, and most importantly, being responsible members of the community.  From what I've seen there needs to be a renewed focus on sportsmanship and fair play.  Meaning if you see something, SAY SOMETHING.  The people who organize these events need to know what's going on in order to address it.  When the state of the game has devolved, the players need to start to police themselves as well.  If you see some one without eye pro on, tell them to get it on.  When you see some one overshooting, let them know why it's a bad thing.  Blind firing, not calling hits, shooting too close with a hot gun, etc.  All of these things need to be addressed promptly.  I'm not saying we all need to be asshats about it, just that we need refocus on making things safe which will inevitably lead to more leadership and enjoyable game play.

I know I'm new to the forum, but I've been around the scene back in the day and it was a good time.  My input may not be the most valuable because my current experience on the field is lacking, but I'm trying to give some suggestions on how we can fix things based on my previous experiences.  If I'm in the wrong feel free to let me know.  I just want to help.

[luke213]

My own opinion mirrors your own, it doesn't take a whole lot of players to bring back the forums and organization as a whole that MIA has been over the years. I should note too that MIA as a whole isn't unique in the whole lower traffic over the years. I think as a whole facebook has taken up allot of traffic which in the past was on forums. However for certain though I've seen a bit of a resurgence of forum traffic in certain sectors I think because of the benefits within them. Forums aren't the magic bullet so to speak, but I do feel they might be the best way to organize airsoft as a hobby that is currently available. Facebook has some advantages, actually last week I was putting together a pro/con list between the two so that I could figure out a clear reason why and where each were better. But at the end of the day forums other than being quick really did win out in allot of ways especially with moderation of the community.

Luke

[darcness]

I also like how you brought up the point of forums having a history.  Organization is much better and information stays in a usable form for a long time (if not forever).  This makes it SO much easier for new players and veterans alike to find relevant information without having to sift through a bunch of stuff they don't need.

[darcness]

I did have one thought.  Maybe make a post on the facebook page asking regular contributors to ALSO share their content in a thread here on the forum.  It's not that difficult to copy/paste your text from there to here and put it in the proper forum.  I would ask this myself but many of these guys don't know me yet and I don't want them to think I'm some new guy trying to stir shit up or tell them what to do.  If some one with some more presence in the current community wants to do that, I think it could really help and it's really not that much work.

[luke213]

I think rather than just moving everything if they come here and see what I mention in the first post that's the best. Since some guys were venting there in the other thread, as well as putting out their opinion. So if they feel like cross posting it, more than welcome but if they want to type something new or more info they are also more than welcome;)

Luke

[Yutani-313]

I figured I'd make a comment here since I made the original post that brought all of this to light.

For something of an introduction, I've been playing airsoft for MAYBE three years. As far as MIA goes I'm as green as grass compared to most folks. However in that brief time I've gone from a total newb to a rather seasoned MSW veteran and a fairly active member of RR Metro Detroit, one of the newer chapters of The Rushing Russians. My climb to said status was not pure happenstance however - ever since I bought my first LBE, an oldgen M81 Arktis chest rig, I've been hungry for the thrill of milsim. Before I finally dipped my toes into airsoft I used to spend an unhealthy amount of time watching old scoutthedoggie videos and early MSW videos from 2014. It was something that, while at the time only a dream, I knew I wanted to do someday and do regularly. The intensity of events like MSW's Crimean Crisis video series was something I thought about while at school on a pretty obsessive basis.

One of the first events I attended was one of SK's rec games at No Limits. It's a pretty bog-standard first time thing to do, but it left a fairly noticeable impression on me at the time. Everybody was very friendly, the rules were clear and concise and I had no problem making acquaintances on the field. I enjoyed myself quite a lot. Eventually I would go on to meet a few of the RR313 guys while they were still known as Spetsgruppa Snegurochka at an event at Hell's Survivors during winter, and the rest is history. The one thing I remember the most, however, is how welcoming everybody was at that game. I didn't feel alienated even though I barely knew anybody, I felt I could just play without any reservations.

I was 20 years old then, barely an adult. Now I'm 24, I'm nearing the end of my time in college, and I've got to say that even in that brief span of time I've noticed that the friendliness, the warmth from that first game I attended has more or less evaporated from most places. Most rec games that I attend, which there are few these days, there's some level of conflict, and at the small events that I do bother attending when I'm not burned out there's always a palpable tension between two teams that usually erupts in on-field shouting matches and bad behavior.

To be frank, the community that I came into when I first began playing is either dying or has completely subsumed to an entirely different atmosphere, one of which I can imagine is a lot less comfortable for new players to get into and not anywhere as enjoyable for older players to care about. Perhaps that day was a fluke and I got a good day, but what I experience now is nothing compared to that.

A lot of people likely know me for my rather vitriolic and inciting comments on the MIA Facebook group, and through my chapter's aggressive presence during play. While I will apologize for my more insidious and purposely detracting commentary, what I won't apologize for is the very scalding criticisms I've left of the community in the last year or so. To be frank, I've gotten pretty fed up with how unenthusiastic and complacent players have become with the dire situation in our state. Our "milsim" scene seemed to be solely dominated by overpriced, glorified rec games in Blacksheep and Lion Claws before they were run out of the state, leaving us with nothing because interest in more serious local events dried up in favor of events whose saving grace are their expansive AOs. Now, besides The Bastards' 24-hour milsim series which are now closed to the public, there is virtually no milsim in Michigan. 'Scenario' events, which seem to be very prevalent in the lower peninsula, are NOT milsim - they're rec games with longer objective times. They are popular, I feel, because they're arguably less demanding than milsims and Michigan players have decidedly lost their conviction in engaging themselves on the field for longer than two hours at a time.

The playerbase, to keep it short, has failed local event hosts in a remarkable fashion. Because there's no sense of community among players, there's no sense of dedication to each other, so support for local events dries up and instead goes to national-level hosts who don't care about the local community they're damaging, which in turn embitters more players like myself to stop taking part, and the cycle repeats itself.

The easiest and first solution to this problem is to fiercely support new hosts and new fields.

The reality is that newer fields like 82nd and MCA do not get the turnouts that they need to survive. MCA is open every weekend and is only $15 for registration yet when they host and promote events like Graham's MiniSim series no more than 40 tend to show up. The Bastards have hosted rec games several times at Lone Wolf Paintball and yet each time there was no more than 30 players, yet whenever SK hosts at Action Paintball there's a healthy amount of 60-80 players each time. There seems to be a predisposed bias towards "established" hosts and no interest in supporting ones that need it to establish themselves, which is why players end up going to the same fields and playing the same games every year.

When players do attend new events and new fields, they act immaturely when things don't go their way. The Bastards' Fading Light was a 24-hour milsim in the vein of MSW, meaning that there are not a chain of "objectives" to pursue for no real reason other than filling time - it's immersion-based. When it came to the NATO side being regularly defeated during key conflicts due to lack of awareness and readiness, they became embittered and a large majority of them left the event before the night even came. Some even ordered food to the AO, shattering the 'immersion' aspect entirely. At the end of the event only 10 of them remained. A number of them made very unjustifiable and weak complaints in the Facebook group, which coupled with the bad attitude and lack of preparedness on the players' behalves during the event led to Mosin closing his 24-hour series to the public. During Graham's MiniSim: Facing Worlds a number of players on the green side were incredibly hostile towards tan team when they were consistently outmaneuvered and defeated on objectives, some of which were routinely ignore calling obvious hits and breaking rules of engagement.

Overall, there needs to be a SERIOUS step up behavior-wise from the players, and there needs to be a stronger conviction from the community to support new hosts and new fields. Without those people putting themselves out there to help grow the community, it will continue to stagnate and eventually wither and die.

[luke213]

So I think you're completely right in your view, however I draw a different conclusion;) I think as a whole airsoft will always been a different hobby than allot of different hobbies. In the sense that there is allot of diversity in what guys get out of the game and the level of interaction with it. In other words, you're going to have more casual players, and serious players and everything in between. I'd say most players are in the middle, just by the odds. And those players may attend a rec game, then maybe do a milsim or scenario style game but might not do a hardcore milsim style game. Or they may find it's not for them, or on the other hand they may find out it's just what they are looking for.

But the biggest thing from my perspective is that milsim isn't going to be for everyone, it's just not. I know guys who play very casually and just wouldn't do milsim. They might see the barrier of entry to a scenario game as too high. New players especially often need to feel out the waters and see if they enjoy it before committing time and money. As well they may decide they like a casual game or both.

So at least from my point of view, I think milsim is awesome but even myself at least now it's not really for me. I prefer something of a milsim lite, I get to sleep in my own bed situation. And I have a hard time dedicating two days on a weekend to anything let alone airsoft. Often I work 7 days a week in the shop and free time is with the wife and kids and it's seldom. My point in saying all of this though is be careful not to exclude players, in the sense that someday they may have the time or interest in milsim even if it's not right for them or they aren't able/ready today to go do it.

I think as a community we need to be inclusive, of all the different ways of playing airsoft. And I think the same goes for hosts, the players are there, or will be if enough guys have an interest in a particular type of game. Good or bad, if milsim doesn't take off in Michigan I don't think it will be for lack of trying and I completely understand. But if it doesn't then there isn't enough players interested, it's not right or wrong just not the way they want to play etc.

Using Pagan as an example since he was mentioned I will say Jeremy has been doing hosting a long time, and he's built a reputation as a good host. That's going to hold weight over a new host, and it should because he's put in the time, effort and money to make his name. With newer groups/hosts they are going to have to draw in players their own way and put forth the work as well. And if they are hosting games guys want to play then they'll go.

I know it's frustrating to put a ton of time, effort and money into something you love and not have it pan out. And I'm not saying milsim is that way in Michigan, I don't honestly think it is. I think it's on the upswing, but I also think it's going to take allot more time and effort before it becomes even more popular. Good or bad I just think that's where allot of guys are at the moment.

As for the whole community though I think we all need to be inclusive and keep in mind that we dress up and run around shooting each other with BB's. And at the end of the day it's a hell of allot of fun no matter how you prefer to do that. Supporting hosts with game styles you like, will drive the game in that direction. If there are enough guys to push things one way or the other it'll be what it is. Even in my area I seldom host rec style games, I do more of a milsim lite or scenario style game. Most of the other play is more of a rec or pickup game. It's not a bad thing, we both coexist just fine. I go and play pickup games because it's fun, and I host scenario's here as time permits. Works out fine and there is an absolute ton of cross over players that do exactly the same thing and play both styles/places.

So just an idea of another way to look at things, and for everyone reading this do keep in mind the majority of guys that host games don't make money doing it. They do it because they love airsoft to some degree or another. So next game go shake their hand and tell them thanks for taking time away from their life/family to do something you get to enjoy;)

Luke

[Yutani-313]

My response wasn't focused on milsim, really - I was only using those events as examples as to what's been happening in the community as of late. The overarching theme I've been following regardless of whether or not it's a rec game or a 24-hour milsim is that the new blood is not getting the support it needs and that's why things are stagnating. Of course people like Pagan deserve those good turnouts, but when they're the only people getting these turnouts despite the number of players in the community it's not healthy.

I can understand that people are not interested in milsim, and that's fine by me. I'm going to keep attending milsim events until I eventually either grow tired with airsoft or I die. My sole issue with milsim in Michigan however stems directly from the attitude that I witnessed during Fading Light, The Bastards' most recent 24-hour event. The lack of conviction and respect for the atmosphere of the game was palpable enough that Mosin made his events invite-only from now on because he can't trust the bulk of MIA players to play by the spirit of the game. It was really bad.

I have a serious feeling that Lion Claws and AMS have irreparably damaged the "milsim" brand as a whole across the country, and that's why more serious games are not respected enough and generally flop as a result.

[luke213]

I think that may be part of the problem is confusion about what that style of event is like, and as mentioned could be hosts using terms incorrectly or differently. I know for certain that what MSW does, compared to Lion Claws are completely different critters. Only common in the sense guys are shooting airsoft at one another. But if I didn't know the difference and knew approximately what to expect from Lion Claws and showed up at MSW it would be a shock to the system.

I think to that end it would be great to get more information out there, or as much as possible. That way guys know the serious level of preparation and gear that will be required. And maybe even host a lightweight version in the case of Mosin/Mike giving guys a little taste to see if it's something they want to jump into a full experience of. IE host a beginner game of some sort, bring some of the elements together to insure guys are up to the full boat experience, and require guys to go through that before signing up to a full fledged event. That should insure less players leaving during the course of the game.

May not be an answer but if it were me I'd give it a shot I think and see how it shook out.

Take care!

Luke

[darcness]

Yutani and Luke, you both bring up some really good points here.  I'll try my best to respond to each of them.

I wholeheartedly agree that the newer crowd isn't getting the support it needs to thrive in the sport.  I remember back when I started playing we got a warm welcome and generally were accepted by the other players on the field.  Whether it was a rec game, an open game, or an operation as we used to call them, people were helpful, present, and accessible.  The old forum also helped tremendously with this because often times you knew people before you ever hit the field.  That takes a lot of the "anxiety" barrier down which can often lead to problems on the field.  If you don't know anyone and your already uncomfortable and then you're getting lit up with bb's on top of it, you're going to have a bad day.  That spills over into gameplay and then that attitude becomes contagious with the other players.  As veterans of the sport we have to do a better job representing ourselves and also do our parts to make these newer players more comfortable.  Teaching and leading can often be the most difficult job one can take on, but it's merits and results are unquestionable.

I agree that we need to support our local fields and hosts.  I've been to MCA's outdoor field and the turnouts are low and the atmosphere is more of a stroll in the park rather than an excitement about putting some rounds down range.  I want to see that excitement come back and see bigger amounts of people turn out for these events.  I know a lot of us who are veterans don't want to put up with the bullshit, but we might have to put on our big boy pants and wade in the mud for a bit if we want to clean this shit up.  It takes some real participation and some real work to fix a community as large as Michigan Airsoft is, but it CAN be done.  We just need the right people to maybe sacrifice a bit and put in the work to show these guys how it should be done (how it USED to be done).

I do notice that we also have a bit of an issue with a divided community.  This is nothing new, as it's always been this way.  I remember being on the green team at the beginning and being pissed off because we constantly were getting demolished by the more experienced guys on the field.  To fix this I got 3 color desert BDU's and never looked back, lol.  Honestly it's how the progression goes most of the time.  However, that doesn't mean we have to be arrogant assholes or look down on people for being new.  Look into what you can do to make the experience better for EVERYONE.  Not just the new guys and not just yourself or your team.  You can talk to even organizers about evening up the teams, try switching up sides, suggest different game styles, work with the new guys, etc.  If you start to fix the issues while they are still solvable, you avoid getting to huge blowouts that end up causing all kinds of chaos when it boils over. 

Lastly I'd just like to say that we can't forget what all this is about.  It's a bunch of people running around playing dress up, shooting bb's at each other.  Everyone is going to do things their own way and no two folks are going to want the exact same thing out of the experience.  We can't blame players or even hosts for issues that are simply out of their control.  When we start throwing around blame on venues, player base, or hosts, it ends up being a bitchfest to no where.  Instead we need to address the CORE of the issues like we are with discussions such as this.  It needs to be an overall culture change if we want to make airsoft great again.  From the veterans, to the teams, the event venues and hosts, and the new guys coming down the pipes.  All of us need to make an honest and meaningful effort.

[luke213]

I think at the end of the day the biggest thing we all as a community need to do is reach out to a degree to players and be accepting of what other guys do for fun within the hobby. Everyone that plays airsoft gets different things from it and enjoys it differently.

And I think to that end it's going to require boots on the ground so to speak at events getting to know guys and trying to get guys involved in the community as a whole.

Also no matter where the community ends up(while I do think there is a strong case for forums, especially because of search and indexing). I think we need to do more things to involve the community. One suggestion I made before was AAR's after action reports. Basically a BS session about a game or a particular kill in the game. But those types of things are not only fun, but they engage guys who weren't even at the game. And if other guys see that a bunch of guys had fun they wonder what they missed out on and may make more of an effort to go to the next game.

To be honest we're all in the same boat to a degree. As players you want to go to a game with the right amount of players. If you design a game for 50 guys and 10 show up, it's hard to make that a good game. The hosts need the players as do the fields to drive the financial reasons for doing airsoft. But at the end of the day we all need players no matter their team, and the best way to keep players and by them enjoying themselves playing the game.

Luke

[Gimpalong]

I think it's important to provide some context about the MiA community of the past to better understand how we've gotten to where we are today.

First, back in the 2008-2012 time period, the community was smaller and tighter knit.
Second, the community had a central meeting place - the old Proboards forum.
Third, due to the size of the community, games were structured much differently than today with an emphasis on, at the very least, scenario style play.

So how did we arrive at the fragmented, rec-game focused community we have today?

The most significant contributing factor, in my opinion, was a fairly large collapse in the number of fields available for large games.

In 2017, Michigan community (i.e. not national level) scenario or milsim events were held at, as I recall, two fields. Operation Fading Light was held at Hole in the Wall Paintball in Bangor and The Throwdown was held at Traverse City Paintball in Copemish.

These were, again as I recall, the two largest events in Michigan in 2017 with a focus on a longer, more complex style of play.

In the past, large events were held at the following fields
WMI/SABR/Youngs - GR - NO LONGER ACTIVE
SFOD - Davison - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hell Survivors - Pinckney - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Futureball - Whitmore Lake - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Phoenix North/Haunted Hay Ride - Lenox - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Chaos Paintball - Charlotte - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Splatmandu - Three Rivers - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Matrix Airsoft - Ypsilanti/Other places - NO LONGER ACTIVE (?)
Area 51 Paintball - Mancelona - NO LONGER ACTIVE
The Swamp - West Branch - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hole in the Wall Paintball - Bangor - ACTIVE
Action Paintball/No Limits - Taylor - ACTIVE
TCP - Copemish - ACTIVE

So, as demonstrated above, many large fields which were once used to host larger events are no longer available due to a variety of factors.

Simultaneously, as bigger fields were closing down or becoming unavailable, smaller, more rec-focused fields were popping up. I'm not much of a CQB/Indoor player, so any list of these fields I could put out would be incomplete, but suffice to say that there have been a LOT of these little fields. Generally, they would pop up for a year or two and then change names, move locations or close. MCA Indoor is just one in a long line of smaller, rec focused CQB type places that included others like Farmington CQB, Phoenix Tactical, Eastside and Tango Down. In addition, places like Matrix, MCA Outdoor, Toxic and Action Paintball provided players with rec games on a fairly regular basis.

Back when I started playing in 2006 all the way through to around the 2010 period, the community was so small that people had to travel to games in order to play. There really were no rec game facilities providing weekly games as there are now. Big games were hosted monthly or every other month at big fields across the state. One month a big game might be at Hell Survivors and the next month it could be at Bangor. In the winter months, Chaos Paintball in Charlotte regularly hosted a big scenario event.

The point here is that there were no weekly rec game opportunities for players to get their airsoft "fix." You either drove to several big fields throughout the season or you had to wait until a big game came to your area.

Today we have tons of opportunities for people to play rec type games and, in my opinion, all of the energy and hype gets blown on those events rather than people focusing on attending big events - which are not even available anymore due to the lack of big fields we've been experiencing.

Bigger places like Dirty Paintball/MCA Outdoor or 82nd Airborne have a hard time competing in an environment where games are being offered every weekend at several sites within an hours drive.

I know this is a long post, so I'll just wrap up here.

Bottomline: if you want to encourage bigger games, scenario games, milsim games, you've got to encourage people to get away from the weekly rec game addiction and educate them to appreciate a more complex, higher level of play. In addition, you've also got to create partnerships with the existing fields and maintain those relationships. Hell Survivors and Futureball have solid facilities, but no one wants to play there due to staff issues that could probably be corrected with some dialogue. Lastly, we've got to encourage an ethos of educating and taking new players under the wings of veteran players - not driving new players away with elitism, vitriol or "my team shits on your team" nonsense.

[luke213]

The only thing I would question there is the size of the community, I don't have the numbers and I wasn't back yet during that 2008ish time frame. But from what I've seen in the member numbers etc, it looks like the community as a whole may have been bigger back then than it is today combining forum numbers along with facebook. That of course doesn't include more break off groups etc on facebook which could easily account for the different feel of the community.

I do agree though that the loss of the fields mentioned certainly effected MIA and airsoft within Michigan. And not to degrade the conversation into MSW/LC discussion. But I think at the end of the day that whole incident and following controversy hurt airsoft as a whole. It drove further division I think between players and who they were supporting by attending games. And I completely understand the guys who picked one side or the other, but I think putting players in a position where they have to pick is going to hurt both sides and isn't going to help airsoft grow as a hobby. But time frame wise that also occurred during this same stretch of decline and I do think that played a role. It came at a bad time to have a big issue within the community, and it was also an issue earlier with Blacksheep as well and that whole controversy.

The one place I'm not sure I agree maybe I do but I'm torn is on REC games. I think of REC and scenario games as two independent things. Within a very small community of players sure they will draw guys from one to the other, particularly I think REC players will be less likely to go to a scenario game if they are just used to REC games. But I don't think it goes the other direction, if you typically play scenario games and you've got the choice between that and REC I think most guys will go scenario. I do think REC games can give a good introduction to more serious play, and sometimes be used for another step of scenario or milisim lite types of games to let guys decide if they would like to take it to the next step.

I think another thing though with milsim/scenario/anything more in depth than a rec game is making sure to educate the community about the game itself and it's requirements. Just as an example and not a great one but an example none the less. When I went down to Irene first large scale game I've been to, first time anything more than a local game since I've been back. I researched, posted, asked questions and generally tried to find any information I could to be prepared. I also then passed all that to my guys I was bringing with so we were all up to speed. We still missed some things, and we still could have done better. That wasn't a crazy intense game as far as what was needed etc, but the information was way harder to find than I think is practical. I'm a research junkie, and if it weren't for me I don't honestly think most of my guys would have found allot of the minor stuff needed etc. Since there is also variation in the hosts, that requires different gear etc. That's something I think could really be improved with allot of hosts of more in depth games. Insure the players know exactly what to bring and what is needed for the game, otherwise some guys will just think it's too difficult to figure out and may not attend when otherwise they could. And I can't speak for all games, but I have researched games other than Lion Claws over the years and run into some of the same headaches.

So I think getting that information out there and easy to process for new players to that particular host/series/events, would be a big help to the community as well as drawing in new players to those games. Possibly even as simple as youtube videos explaining rules and such(which to their credit LC did do some of, but it was far too few, and too little information).

That though at least from my perspective would be a huge help to new players of that particular host, especially if they don't have players near them to be able to bounce questions off of. As well when you ask some of those questions you get replies like "oh that doesn't really matter". And while that may be true, maybe they don't enforce that rule in particular but it's good to know the "goal" rather than the accepted standard of play so to speak. And as it stands often times it's very confusing for most players who haven't attended that sort of event in the past to figure out the details and get all their ducks in a row before showing up to play.

Luke

[Canto]

I think it's important to provide some context about the MiA community of the past to better understand how we've gotten to where we are today.

First, back in the 2008-2012 time period, the community was smaller and tighter knit.
Second, the community had a central meeting place - the old Proboards forum.
Third, due to the size of the community, games were structured much differently than today with an emphasis on, at the very least, scenario style play.

So how did we arrive at the fragmented, rec-game focused community we have today?

The most significant contributing factor, in my opinion, was a fairly large collapse in the number of fields available for large games.

In 2017, Michigan community (i.e. not national level) scenario or milsim events were held at, as I recall, two fields. Operation Fading Light was held at Hole in the Wall Paintball in Bangor and The Throwdown was held at Traverse City Paintball in Copemish.

These were, again as I recall, the two largest events in Michigan in 2017 with a focus on a longer, more complex style of play.

In the past, large events were held at the following fields
WMI/SABR/Youngs - GR - NO LONGER ACTIVE
SFOD - Davison - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hell Survivors - Pinckney - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Futureball - Whitmore Lake - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Phoenix North/Haunted Hay Ride - Lenox - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Chaos Paintball - Charlotte - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Splatmandu - Three Rivers - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Matrix Airsoft - Ypsilanti/Other places - NO LONGER ACTIVE (?)
Area 51 Paintball - Mancelona - NO LONGER ACTIVE
The Swamp - West Branch - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hole in the Wall Paintball - Bangor - ACTIVE
Action Paintball/No Limits - Taylor - ACTIVE
TCP - Copemish - ACTIVE

So, as demonstrated above, many large fields which were once used to host larger events are no longer available due to a variety of factors.

Simultaneously, as bigger fields were closing down or becoming unavailable, smaller, more rec-focused fields were popping up. I'm not much of a CQB/Indoor player, so any list of these fields I could put out would be incomplete, but suffice to say that there have been a LOT of these little fields. Generally, they would pop up for a year or two and then change names, move locations or close. MCA Indoor is just one in a long line of smaller, rec focused CQB type places that included others like Farmington CQB, Phoenix Tactical, Eastside and Tango Down. In addition, places like Matrix, MCA Outdoor, Toxic and Action Paintball provided players with rec games on a fairly regular basis.

Back when I started playing in 2006 all the way through to around the 2010 period, the community was so small that people had to travel to games in order to play. There really were no rec game facilities providing weekly games as there are now. Big games were hosted monthly or every other month at big fields across the state. One month a big game might be at Hell Survivors and the next month it could be at Bangor. In the winter months, Chaos Paintball in Charlotte regularly hosted a big scenario event.

The point here is that there were no weekly rec game opportunities for players to get their airsoft "fix." You either drove to several big fields throughout the season or you had to wait until a big game came to your area.

Today we have tons of opportunities for people to play rec type games and, in my opinion, all of the energy and hype gets blown on those events rather than people focusing on attending big events - which are not even available anymore due to the lack of big fields we've been experiencing.

Bigger places like Dirty Paintball/MCA Outdoor or 82nd Airborne have a hard time competing in an environment where games are being offered every weekend at several sites within an hours drive.

I know this is a long post, so I'll just wrap up here.

Bottomline: if you want to encourage bigger games, scenario games, milsim games, you've got to encourage people to get away from the weekly rec game addiction and educate them to appreciate a more complex, higher level of play. In addition, you've also got to create partnerships with the existing fields and maintain those relationships. Hell Survivors and Futureball have solid facilities, but no one wants to play there due to staff issues that could probably be corrected with some dialogue. Lastly, we've got to encourage an ethos of educating and taking new players under the wings of veteran players - not driving new players away with elitism, vitriol or "my team shits on your team" nonsense.

The only thing I would question there is the size of the community, I don't have the numbers and I wasn't back yet during that 2008ish time frame. But from what I've seen in the member numbers etc, it looks like the community as a whole may have been bigger back then than it is today combining forum numbers along with facebook. That of course doesn't include more break off groups etc on facebook which could easily account for the different feel of the community.

I do agree though that the loss of the fields mentioned certainly effected MIA and airsoft within Michigan. And not to degrade the conversation into MSW/LC discussion. But I think at the end of the day that whole incident and following controversy hurt airsoft as a whole. It drove further division I think between players and who they were supporting by attending games. And I completely understand the guys who picked one side or the other, but I think putting players in a position where they have to pick is going to hurt both sides and isn't going to help airsoft grow as a hobby. But time frame wise that also occurred during this same stretch of decline and I do think that played a role. It came at a bad time to have a big issue within the community, and it was also an issue earlier with Blacksheep as well and that whole controversy.

The one place I'm not sure I agree maybe I do but I'm torn is on REC games. I think of REC and scenario games as two independent things. Within a very small community of players sure they will draw guys from one to the other, particularly I think REC players will be less likely to go to a scenario game if they are just used to REC games. But I don't think it goes the other direction, if you typically play scenario games and you've got the choice between that and REC I think most guys will go scenario. I do think REC games can give a good introduction to more serious play, and sometimes be used for another step of scenario or milisim lite types of games to let guys decide if they would like to take it to the next step.

I think another thing though with milsim/scenario/anything more in depth than a rec game is making sure to educate the community about the game itself and it's requirements. Just as an example and not a great one but an example none the less. When I went down to Irene first large scale game I've been to, first time anything more than a local game since I've been back. I researched, posted, asked questions and generally tried to find any information I could to be prepared. I also then passed all that to my guys I was bringing with so we were all up to speed. We still missed some things, and we still could have done better. That wasn't a crazy intense game as far as what was needed etc, but the information was way harder to find than I think is practical. I'm a research junkie, and if it weren't for me I don't honestly think most of my guys would have found allot of the minor stuff needed etc. Since there is also variation in the hosts, that requires different gear etc. That's something I think could really be improved with allot of hosts of more in depth games. Insure the players know exactly what to bring and what is needed for the game, otherwise some guys will just think it's too difficult to figure out and may not attend when otherwise they could. And I can't speak for all games, but I have researched games other than Lion Claws over the years and run into some of the same headaches.

So I think getting that information out there and easy to process for new players to that particular host/series/events, would be a big help to the community as well as drawing in new players to those games. Possibly even as simple as youtube videos explaining rules and such(which to their credit LC did do some of, but it was far too few, and too little information).

That though at least from my perspective would be a huge help to new players of that particular host, especially if they don't have players near them to be able to bounce questions off of. As well when you ask some of those questions you get replies like "oh that doesn't really matter". And while that may be true, maybe they don't enforce that rule in particular but it's good to know the "goal" rather than the accepted standard of play so to speak. And as it stands often times it's very confusing for most players who haven't attended that sort of event in the past to figure out the details and get all their ducks in a row before showing up to play.

Luke

I agree with you both on several different areas. You guys hit the nail on the head pretty well, I'll elaborate further:

1) The dissolution of the older (MiA Proboards) forum caused a "virtual" floor to drop out of the community. We can still access the old forum for information, but we cannot post nor can any new members join. This furthermore prompted the creation of the new (miairsoft.org) forum; thanks Luke!

More or less, we had to start not quite from zero, but decently close if you understand my meaning. There were several of us that already had knew each other both on and off the field in the sport so when recreating it, we had a bit of player base to start with.

2) Community fragmentation has not helped the process. I believe the facebook group was created before the downfall of the old Proboards forum, however if memory serves me right it was around for a few years beforehand (just looked, it's been around since at least 2007). We have 1,018 members here on the forum and 2,434 members in the facebook group. A bit skewed...

However there is now: West Michigan Airsoft, Michana Airsoft Coaltion, West Michigan Airsoft Game Finder, and I believe Kalamazoo Airsoft has a group as well... Anyone else see the problem here? Because I know for a fact from the posts and members you see that there are many people in all of the groups that are not a member of another Michigan related group.

Even if each split off group only has 500 members, that's a huge section of the playing population in Michigan that is "disconnected" from other people, events, and information because of this. I'm not going to say it's the only thing, but it's certainly not helping the matter at all...

3) As Gimpalong said, there was a large amount of fields that are no longer hosting airsoft events for various reasons; whether it be economic, disagreements, or the place simply closed. At about the same time several places began hosting recreational style games, so the market began to shift slightly.

The first event I attended was Operation: Red Out hosted at Futureball in 2006 and my first public, hosted event with Hole in the Wall Paintball was in October of 2006. Damn near none of the locations that were around then are around now.

From the prospective of an event host, I know that Bangor, Michigan is far from a major population center (Kalamazoo/Portage) but event turnouts across the board have dropped dramatically over the years. I live in the Portage area and work part-time at the paintball field on the weekends, it's not that far. As was said above, sometimes you just gotta drive...

Over on my end, it's like pulling teeth to get people to sign-up for a scenario event, even if no payment is required until the day of the game. People rarely ask questions, or post anything. People over the last few years  have simply just shown up at event registration, which is fine. But people like to see the numbers and people that are attending a game, I have told people all summer long to sign up for this event or that event. Just clicking the "Attend" button on a facebook event post just isn't good enough guys...

The rise in recreational style games over the years can probably be attributed to the cost and time of operating a field. Property size, infrastructure (existing or planned), capital and sheer amount of time involved with all of it can play a key factor for game style and size. You can't cram 100 people on 5 acres... Sometimes you need more than a tree to hide behind... And all of that takes time, labor, and money.

Depending on who owns the land, they might not want any structures or bunkers on it at all... I started playing on the 10 acres my grandparents own with my friends, I always assumed we shouldn't construct anything and we never did. Prohibitive in one regard, common sense in another.

I've began hosting a recreational game every Sunday to keep pace with other local fields doing the same thing. If you have 50 players total, spread across five different fields; everyone gets 10... And that's what it's been all summer long. We have some dedicated players that drive from the Grand Rapids and Holland area, but practically none from Kalamazoo; I find that strange considering proximity.

4) The individual tastes of the player will be reflected in the style of games they choose to play or host...

- Some people want a laid back, relaxed, chill day of airsoft; Recreational game.
- Some people want a slightly more rigid set of rules with more structure; Scenario, Hybrid, or older style Milsim games.
- Some people want a very rigid, strict, and highly regulated/structured game; Current Milsim events.

I fall into the 1st to 2nd category. Scenario, Hybrid, or the older Milsim games we used to have were fun. Simply  put, if I wanted to stay up for 20 hours playing and then do a night watch for 4 hours, I would have joined the military... It's just not the style of airsoft that I like to play.

It's not my type of game to play nor host personally. I open Hole in the Wall Paintball up to outside hosts that want to use our location for whatever type of event they want to hold, but it's not something I plan on hosting myself.

I like games with some structure (uniform regulations, weapon type-ammunition regulations, etc), but I also keep in mind you see a broad range of airsofters at events from actual combat veterans to the high school kid. And it's reflected in the styles of events I host. Operation: Flash Fire/Firestorm would be a great example. Somewhat structured but not intimidating to newer players.

My point with this whole thing is all locations need to be inclusive of all players, game tastes, and styles of play. Keep in mind that everyone needs to start somewhere, we all did.